[* NOTE: During the 1970s, when freedom of speech was still being suppressed in Taiwan, Cheng Nan-jung, founder of Freedom Era magazine, used both his magazine and direct protest actions to spearhead intensive attacks aimed at broaching the "four great taboo topics" - the Chiang family mythology, misdeeds of the military, the 228 Incident, and Taiwan independence. In January 1989, in protest for being indicted for "treason" as the consequence of publishing a new draft constitution, he self-immolated in the editorial office of his magazine.]

施正鋒：再回頭來看看我們台灣的做法，二二八事件在過去年代是不能被談論的，大概從南榕先生開始，才陸陸續續有越來越多的人加入揭發這個真相的和平公義活動。活動的最高峰是二二八紀念館的落成，但是這個紀念館只是形式，好像政府已經沒有虧欠這些家屬了。不管是之前的李前登輝總統或現在的政府，都想要「正常化」這件事情，因為贏得選舉、當家做主還是最重要的，他們希望在選舉上能擺脫這個負擔。所以二二八紀念館的意義是空洞的，放不放假就可以討論很久，但是沒有放假就沒有紀念的意義，學校應該在放假之前將整件事情的真相告訴學生。

[* 註1. 鄭南榕，《自由時代週刊》創刊人，在台灣言論封閉的一九八○年代裡，結合雜誌與運動以密集攻勢突破官方四大禁忌：蔣家神話、軍方弊端、二二八、台灣獨立。一九八九年一月，他因刊登憲法草案而被官方以「叛亂罪」起訴，為抗議此項控訴最後自焚於《自由時代週刊》總編輯室內。]

In regard to the families of 228 Incident victims, the government imagines that it can use money to rectify the damage done to them. But many victims' families aren't in need of money, only hoping that the government can give them justice. On another note, many victimizers perhaps were acting on orders from their superiors, or perhaps did those evil things for the sake of collective social-group interest. Although it certainly isn't my intention here to help them come up with excuses to expiate their guilt, I believe that ever since their involvement in the incident, they've been unable to live their lives with peace of mind, with the result that they've resorted to collective selective amnesia in order to make it through the times since then. And in fact, they're afraid that if there's a second 228-type incident, it'll be they who are the targets of murderous attacks. This sort of paranoia is unhealthy, and the Taiwanese people ought not to be thought of as hungry for revenge. All we want is to clearly understand what exactly transpired in the 228 Incident.

對這些二二八事件受難者的家庭，政府以為用金錢就可以補償他們的損失，但是很多受難者的家庭並不缺錢，他們只希望政府可以還給他們一個公道。另一方面，很多加害者當初可能是聽了上級的指令，或為了他們族群的整體利益才去做那些壞事－－我並不是找理由幫他們脫罪，但我想這些加害者大概也從此無法安心生活，結果他們的做法是以集體選擇性失憶來度過這些歲月，實際上，他們一直擔心假使有第二次二二八事件，他們就變成殺害的對象。這種被迫害妄想症是不健康的，台灣人應該是不會想要報復，我們只是想清楚了解二二八到底發生什麼事。

LEE MIN-YUNG, Moderator: Why does there exist a "peace" problem in the Taiwanese society? One reason is external pressure: Threats made by the People's Republic of China. When, in 1949, the Chinese Nationalist Party (Kuomintang or KMT) government was driven to Taiwan, virtually all of Taiwan society's political and economic interests were under its control. Chiang Kai-shek's attitude was adamantly anti-communist, and, after him, Chiang Ching-Kuo insisted on having no contacts with the Chinese Communists. But when the KMT lost its absolute power [over Taiwan], they began to worry that the tables would be turned, and they would change from being victimizers to being victims. Additionally, inasmuch as they no longer enjoyed an absolute power advantage, many of them abandoned support for a peaceful Taiwanese society, unwilling to stand shoulder to shoulder with the Taiwanese people in defense of Taiwan.

主持人李敏勇：為什麼台灣會產生和平的問題？一個是來自於外部的壓力：中華人民共和國的威脅。一九四九年，國民黨政權被中共趕到台灣，當時台灣社會中所有的政治經濟利益都掌控在他們手上，蔣介石的態度是堅決反共，之後蔣經國也堅持不與中共來往。但是當他們失去了絕對的統治權力時，便開始擔心自己從加害者變成被害者。另一方面，既然不再享有絕對利益，許多人也就放棄支持台灣和平的立場，不願意與台灣人民站在同一陣線來保護台灣。

The other peace-related problem comes from native Taiwanese, standing in the shadow of the 228 Incident. As Prof. Shih just said, to date there has been no genuine conciliation between victimizers and victims in the 228 Incident. Although there is flourishing economic activity between social groups, there nevertheless still exist many feelings of uneasiness and discontent with respect to political and cultural aspects of their relationship. No native Taiwanese trust in anything said by James Soong [presently chairman of the People First Party, an offshoot of the KMT, and a major figure in the former, repressive KMT regime], and no waisheng people[literally: "outside-province" people - i.e. recent immigrants from Chinese provinces outside of Taiwan] trust in anything [President] Chen Shui-bian says. During the era of Japanese colonial rule, a poet wrote a poem entitled "Love", which goes:

第二個和平的問題來自內部：二二八事件的陰影。誠如剛剛施教授所言，二二八事件的加害者與被害者至今仍未獲得真正的和解。雖然族群之間經濟活動頻繁，但是在政治、文化方面仍然有許多不安、不滿的情緒。宋楚瑜說的話台灣人都不相信、陳水扁說的話外省人也不相信。以前台灣人在日本人的統治下時，也有一個詩人寫一首詩叫做「愛」，詩的內容說著：

My parents have never said they love me
but I know they do love me.
You Japanese often say you love me.
You say we should regard Taiwanese and Japanese as compatriots.
But my heart, having repeatedly been fooled,
has now turned to stone.

父母不曾說過愛我，但是我知道父母愛我
但是日本人你常常說愛我，你說台灣人與日本人應該一視同仁，
但是我的心常常被騙，現在已經變成石頭了。

Similarly, the mutual feelings of distrust between peoples in Taiwan are rooted in the 228 Incident. And conversely, this is also the primary reason why there has still appeared no manifestation of social justice and peace in connection with the 228 Incident.

同樣的，現在台灣各族群之間彼此不信任，這些情緒肇因於二二八事件，反過來也是為什麼到今天二二八事件的公義和平仍然得不到彰顯的主要原因。

Let's go on now to ask Professor Shih to further discuss why the 288 Incident should be dealt with in the manner which we truly hope for.

我們現在進一步請施教授來談為什麼二二八事件必須以我們要求的方式來處理。

SHIH CHENG-FENG: Recently, numerous scholars have undertaken research on why the 228 Incident happened, among whom there are those who hold the view that it was brought about by factors relating to individual persons - the essential idea being that "Chiang Kai-shek must bear the greatest onus." I tend toward the view that this incident shouldn't be interpreted from the standpoint of individuals. Just as in the case of people who say that "Hitler should die a million deaths for his sins," in reality there are many accomplices and historical factors which must be taken into account.

施正鋒：最近有許多學者研究為什麼會發生二二八事件，有一種說法認為是個人的因素造成的，意思就是「蔣介石要負最大的責任」。我比較傾向不要用個人的角度來看，就像有些人會說「希特勒罪該萬死」，但是其實旁邊有很多幫兇與背後的歷史因素。

Let me put it this way: Wouldn't a similar event have occurred if, in those days, it had been the Chinese Communist Party which ruled Taiwan? Or if the [individual leader involved] was either Mao Zedong, Sun Yat-sen or Yuan Shih-kai? In addition to differences between each leader's respective personality and values, one must take into account their perceptions of Taiwan. Judging from China's historical recordings, Taiwan has always been looked upon as a troublesome land of barbarians. Basically speaking, China has always felt that it was sufficient to control Taiwan, and that [for this purpose] it didn't matter if you killed this or that person. Therefore, I feel that whoever might have come [from China] and imposed political control over Taiwan would have acted in essentially the same way, [for which reason] I don't interpret the 228 Incident in terms of individuals.

我這麼說好了，當初如果是共產黨統治台灣，難道就不會發生類似的事件嗎？或是毛澤東、孫中山，還是袁世凱？－－除了每個領導人的個性、價值觀不同，還要看他們怎麼看待台灣。從中國的歷史記載看來，台灣一直就被當作麻煩的化外之地，基本上他們認為只要能控制住台灣就好了，殺幾個人不算什麼。所以我覺得什麼人來台灣拿下政權，做法可能大同小異，我不用個人的角度去解釋二二八事件。

The [Chinese] rulers' refusal to grant autonomy to the people of Taiwan wasn't purely a matter of a domestic power struggle, but involved ethnic groups' senses of identity. Taking South Africa as an example, its white people enjoyed democratic government, but it was undemocratic toward black people. Israel's Jewish people are similarly very democratic, but their attitudes toward [Palestinian-ethnic citizens] is very undemocratic.

統治者不讓台灣人自治，不單純是國內權力鬥爭的問題，而是牽涉到民族認同的問題。拿南非來說，南非的白人享有民主政治，但是他們對黑人不民主；以色列的猶太人也很民主，但是他們對巴勒斯坦人的態度就很不民主。

HSU HSUEH-CHI: I've been doing research on the 228 Incident for more than 10 years now. The year before last, President Chen Shui-bian issued an executive order, instructing that all government agencies possessing any materials having to do with the 228 Incident must bring them out and put them in a special government file. More than a dozen scholars have been involved in the search, including myself, but in the process we've encountered many problems. For example, in the 1980s, during the Lee Teng-hui era, the Taiwan Police Headquarters were requested to hand over a very important list of hoodlums' names and related materials to the [Academia Sinica] Institute of Modern History. Said agency, however, didn't give us the original documents, but only some photocopies. I think there are definitely discrepancies between originals and photocopies, so in taking part in the present program, I've given thought to ways of getting hold of original documents. Disappointingly, however, there are many Police Headquarters materials which have disappeared. For a researcher in history, the real difficulty in researching the 228 Incident lies in this. Because if you don't have [reliable] evidence, you can't make any assertions about it.

許雪姬：我做二二八的研究差不多已經有十幾年了，前年陳水扁總統有發一個命令，所有公家機關只要是有關二二八事件的資料都要找出來，放在政府的檔案夾裡。這件事情差不多有十幾個學者參與，我也是其中一員。但是我們在尋找資料的過程中發現許多問題。譬如民國八十年李登輝總統的時代，曾經要當時的台灣警備總司令部拿一份很重要的太保名單與相關的判刑資料給近代史研究所，但是該單位並沒有將原本的檔案拿給我們，只交出一些影印本。我覺得在原稿與影本之間一定有所闕漏，所以我在參加這個計劃時，就在想有什麼辦法可以拿到原稿。然而令人失望的是，許多警備總部的資料已經不知去向。對一位歷史學家來說，研究二二八事件真正困難的地方正在於此，因為沒有證據，就不能提出相關的論點。

Regardless of circumstances, my historical researches have enabled me to deeply empathize with the tortures undergone by the families of 228 victims. But in gathering these materials, I've also found that the Taiwanese people are truly compassionate and humble. Only few among them ever give consideration to the questions "Why were my family members killed?" , "Who is to be blamed?" or "Who gave the orders?" So most people take the attitude that once the question of compensation has been settled, the whole matter can be put aside. But for us historians, research into the matter has only just begun.

但不論如何，從事歷史研究使我能真正體會受難者家屬心裡所受的磨難，但是我在蒐集這些資料時發現，台灣人真的很仁慈、很謙卑，很少人想到為什麼我的親人會被殺死？這條罪要歸咎在誰身上？誰下令做這樣的事情？所以一般人以為只要賠償多少的問題解決了，這件事就可以告一段落了，但是對我們歷史學家來講，這個研究才正要開始。

In the past, I didn't much like discussing political questions with Chinese-immigrant friends, because after saying just a couple of sentences, they'd very quickly put on a displeased countenance, and you could forget about "brainwashing" each other. Now, however, my attitude is gradually changing, and I want to restrain my emotions, slowly talk with them, and let them know how we feel. If Taiwanese consistently maintain a humble, compassionate mentality but give up on efforts to communicate due to a disadvantage in having to use Mandarin to express ourselves, then we'll never get to the bottom of the 228 Incident.

過去我不太喜歡跟外省朋友談政治的問題，因為談沒有兩句就快翻臉了，誰都別想洗誰的腦。但是現在我的想法慢慢在改變，我要耐住性子慢慢跟他們談，讓他知道我們是怎麼想的。如果台灣人還是抱持一貫謙虛、仁慈的心態，北京話表達，我們又處於劣勢，就因此而放棄不再努力的話，二二八的真相恐怕永遠沒有水落石出的一天。

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